Opaque piano prices

raagamuffin · 2025-04-21T14:10:51+00:00

I recently purchased a new piano and wanted to share (complain?) my thoughts on a particular aspect of it, namely pricing. I have read in many forums that pi...

brdwyguy

I wish more people would talk about price and considerations, when talking about buying a piano. It would make it so much easier for the new buyer to read what other everyday Joe's experience when buying a higher-end piano. I know it can be 'crass' to talk about money, but in this situation, I am trying to help other prospective buyers to see/understand what many of us go thru when making that lifetime purchase of a Grand Piano.
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raagamuffin

I enjoyed reading the stories of members of the community buying their pianos.

Price is a major part of the purchase. But there are others, and I've tried to list the other areas that should be considered when acquiring a piano. (More should be added here, hopefully some of you will contribute).

As for the price issue, the sentiment here seems to be that it is an individual purchase, akin to art. I will deviate from that sentiment, because I feel it is more like a car purchase. There are price points that piano dealers will sell at, even across the board, that fall within a certain range of percentages under the SMP.

I agree with @Gombessa, lowballing is unlikely to be an issue with anyone as long as it's done with an eye towards approaching an acceptable price i.e. serious buyer. It perhaps goes without saying that it doesn't make sense to diffuse any negotiating capital by offering random prices as a casual buyer.

LifelongBeginner

This reminds me about the difference between maximizers and satisficers. If I remember, there was research questioning whether all the extra effort maximizers do actually leads to better decisions. It's hard to say because even though maximizers put in a lot more prep and fretting beforehand than satisficers, they also experience more regret afterward.

And what's a bad decision in buying a piano? I guess two kinds: 1) buying a product that's defective or bad for you; and 2) paying more than you "should" have for the product. I'd probably maximize for #1 (reading too many reviews, being paralyzed, letting a few bad reviews outweigh several good ones), but once I've chosen, #2 is only worth so much energy. I have a friend who always asks how much something cost. likely so he can judge whether you got ripped off. Why? Life's too short to impress those folks. Enjoy your purchase, and tell yourself, "I made the best decision I could have made at the time, and that's that."

brdwyguy

ShiroKuro it was an 'amazing process' but you don't even realize it's a process when you are going thru it, at least I didn't!
I just kept thinking, maybe I should wait and see if there is something out there what I would like better.
So when do you draw the line and say. THIS is what i've been looking for! THIS is what I like! etc etc etc
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sweelinck

pianoloverus

If the typical discounts to SMP vary by brand, then you still have to know what the typical discount is for a particular brand or piano, whether it is expressed as a discount to MSRP or a discount to SMP. This has in the past led me not to see much value in the SMP.

But when shopping for a piano and looking at the SMP's carefully, I noticed that even within a brand there is variability in the magnitude of discount from MSRP represented by SMP.

So if the average negotiated discount expressed as a percentage is constant or closer to constant expressed as a percentage of SMP than if expressed as a percentage of MSRP, then SMP is still more useful.

Ultimately, I concluded that there are 4 distinct prices in play:

MSRP
SMP
Dealer-advertised price
Actual purchase price

I found that the best use of SMP was to eliminate from consideration brands with significant discrepancies between MSRP and SMP.

pianoloverus

sweelinck I found that the best use of SMP was to eliminate from consideration brands with significant discrepancies between MSRP and SMP.

I think the flaw with that approach is that it assumes that for those pianos the selling price will end up being a small discount from SMP and thus not a good deal or less fair. The whole idea of having an SMP is so one doesn't use the MSRP at all.

Yes, it would nice if the PB could give "typical discounts" for each brand but that kind of information was apparently unavailable or not within possible scope for Larry Fine. And because of so many other factors that Fine discusses that can affect discount from SMP, the typical discount for each make may not even exist.

sweelinck

pianoloverus I think the flaw with that approach is that it assumes that for those pianos the selling price will end up being a small discount from SMP and thus not a good deal or less fair.

That isn't my assumption. It is that I place less trust in a supplier that over-inflates MSRP for the purpose of claiming one is getting a bigger discount and better deal when it then is discounted more.

I did make a point of trying a piano before looking up the SMP, though.

pianoloverus

sweelinck That isn't my assumption. It is that I place less trust in a supplier that over-inflates MSRP for the purpose claiming one is getting a bigger discount and better deal when it then is discounted more.

That's reasonable although I think a maker's pricing/ethical decisions may or may not reflect their manufacturing and warranty decisions. I once started a PW thread asking if there was any reason why a maker would choose to have an inflated MSRP other than what you mention. I don't think it got many replies but I don't remember anyone offering alternative reasons.

sweelinck

raagamuffin Are there strategies that you have for other first time buyers that can help them with getting a fair price?

I think the best you can do is to try to investigate what others have recently paid for the particular model of piano, and then decide on your maximum purchase price, and preferred price.

pianoloverus

sweelinck I think the best you can do is to try to investigate what others have recently paid for the particular model of piano...

I don't think one can find much or even any information about that. Were you able to do so?

sweelinck

pianoloverus

I was able to find some pricing info from actual sales through internet searching, though only with respect to sales of Yamaha and Kawai pianos. There is no way to confirm the accuracy of it (all data was self-reported by buyers), and there seem to be regional differences within the US. That seems to be based on the cost of doing business in an area (showroom real estate, staff compensation, service costs, etc.) and sales volume in an area.

Steinway of course advertises actual purchase prices-- MSRP = SMP = Price to be paid, unless they are having a sales event, when they will advertise a discount.

Gombessa

sweelinck I was able to find some pricing info from actual sales through internet searching, though only with respect to sales of Yamaha and Kawai pianos.

Take this with a grain of salt (anecdotal, probably stale by now) but my own experience with these two peer competitive brands is where I've seen this as well. IME,Kawai tends to have a larger price gap between listed MSRP and what dealers might ultimately accept. My local Kawai shop in fact says this pretty openly, like "MSRP is X, but come in and we can get you a pretty big discount." Yamaha seems to have a bit less of a gap between advertised and final negotiated prices, but they do things like frequent manufacturer-sponsored discounting and financing, especially around year end.

I don't really take offense to the former sales practice since it's pretty much expected/industry norm for higher ticket goods like cars, but I totally get that it's less transparent. There are also a lot of different factors at play including larger shops, or brand-exclusive ones, getting better wholesale pricing than others, which can greatly affect the discounts offered. I think that ultimately, when it comes to sales, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat, and some brands may find that consumers respond better to "large discount pricing" while others find flat pricing better for whatever reasons.

brdwyguy

Seriously, what is the big secret about new piano prices?
One gets the feeling they are trying to hide something!

pianoloverus

Gombessa Take this with a grain of salt (anecdotal, probably stale by now) but my own experience with these two peer competitive brands is where I've seen this as well. IME,Kawai tends to have a larger price gap between listed MSRP and what dealers might ultimately accept.

But why is this important if one is trying to decide if a price is fair? Isn't the whole point of
SMP that % off MSRP is not relevant?

sweelinck

For Yamaha and Kawai, it doesn't really matter whether you use MSRP or SMP. The expected percentage discount would be slightly adjusted to convert from one that applies to SMP to one that applies to MSRP.

If SMP is indeed a consistent markup from wholesale across brands, then the markup of actual sales price from wholesale for Steinway and Boston is higher than for Yamaha, which in turn is higher than for Kawai. It will vary from location to location and over time.

I found that a local Yamaha dealer would sell for about 25% below SMP, and a local Kawai dealer would sell for about 30% below SMP. There will be small variations.

pianoloverus

sweelinck For Yamaha and Kawai, it doesn't really matter whether you use MSRP or SMP. The expected percentage discount would be slightly adjusted to convert from one that applies to SMP to one that applies to MSRP.

I think that's true for any make, not just Yamaha and Kawai. Of course, since the relation between MSRP and SMP varies for each maker, one would need different figures for the typical discount from MSRP for each maker. So using SMP is much simpler. More importantly, using SMP avoids the potential trap of a buyer thinking they're getting a great if the dealer offers a big discount from a highly inflated MSRP.

ShiroKuro

Something that just occurred to me in reading this thread…. A piano is often considered a luxury item, and a new piano that much more so.

If a dealer has an inflated price, isn’t there a probably not insignificant chance that wealthy buyers come in and just buy at that price because they can afford it and don’t want to haggle, or don’t want to look cheap etc.? This would be where the dealer stands to make a bigger profit.

If the pricing were more transparent, this type of profit would be reduced.

So dealers that have a lot of new pianos on the floor are not going to want to display prices closer to what they’re actually willing to sell for, because their target customer isn’t the person coming in needing financing etc. This is another difference between piano dealers and car dealers, because probably most people who buy a car are using financing for that.

This is also where location probably comes into play, esp. if it’s a bigger city with a larger wealthy clientele…

Maybe? Just thinking out loud.

I bought my piano used from a private seller, which is obviously the least expensive way to acquire a grand piano. And I only visited one “upscale” dealer — a Steinway Piano Gallery. All the rest of the dealers I visited were a little more…. “scrappy” shall we say, give or take depending on the dealer… There was an amazing difference between the Steinway Gallery and one dealer I went to who didn’t have any new pianos and was just this massive, multi-floored warehouse of almost all uprights….

sweelinck

ShiroKuro If a dealer has an inflated price, isn’t there a probably not insignificant chance that wealthy buyers come in and just buy at that price because they can...

Yes. Also some buyers may not know that they can negotiate.

I think the main reason pricing of say cars and pianos works like this is that demand for them fluctuates both seasonally and from the normal ebbs and flows of the economy, so the prices adjust accordingly. One definitely can get a better deal when the market is soft.

sweelinck

ShiroKuro And I only visited one “upscale” dealer — a Steinway Piano Gallery. All the rest of the dealers I visited were a little more…. “scrappy” shall we say...

Steinway doesn't negotiate on price. They present as a luxury brand, and may have a nice showroom. Where I live, the Steinway dealer is the least nice and most crowded space among the local dealers, though is in a rather toney part of town. Their Boston pianos on the showroom floor were poorly prepped when I visited.

I think the quality of pre- and post-sale prep will vary from dealer to dealer, including with Steinway dealers. This may be more pronounced with Boston-branded pianos than with Steinway pianos.

sweelinck

pianoloverus More importantly, using SMP avoids the potential trap of a buyer thinking they're getting a great [deal] if the dealer offers a big discount from a highly inflated MSRP.

That's why it doesn't matter much whether you use MSRP or SMP for brands where SMP is close to MSRP, including, but not limited to Yamaha and Kawai. You just have to have the correct discount factor.

Another source of opacity is how dealers claim they are pricing trade-ins.

pianoloverus

sweelinck That's why it doesn't matter much whether you use MSRP or SMP for brands where SMP is close to MSRP, including, but not limited to Yamaha and Kawai. You just have to have the correct discount factor.

You can correct the discount factor whether the SMP and MSRP are close or not. But since the discount factor for MSRP is calculated using the values for a 10-30% discount from SMP, it's easier to use SMP. No need to do any further calculation.

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